THING QUANG DUC BRNING MNK 1963
David Halberstam wrote:
I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think … As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him.
Originally Answered: Why did burning monk not feel any pain?
I am a member of the Order that Quang Duc was a member of, and am trained in the same meditations that he trained in. The Order of Interbeing was founded by Zen Master and Therevadan scholar-monk Thich Nhat Hanh, a close friend of Quang Duc. The type of meditation that can lead to feeling peace and no pain even when being burned alive is an advanced extension of Zen meditation. I’ve been practicing for 26 years, and I do not believe I could do it. But I do know that, if I chose to gain the ability, I could probably learn the skill in 4 to 6 years of concentrated effort, meditating 6 hours a day, or more.
Mechanical skill is not sufficient to achieve peace in the midst of self-immolation. One must practice the deepest levels of upekshya, that is, letting go of and cutting off all attachment and all causes of suffering. One must also learn strong disciplines of controlling reaction to sensation. Lastly, one must be called from within, from a spiritual source. Attempting this from a place of anger will lead to a very painful death.
In Lotus in a Sea of Fire, Thich Nhat Hanh explains that Thich Quang Duc “was over 70, that I [Nhat Hanh] had lived with him for nearly one year at Long-Vinh Pagoda and found him a very kind and lucid person, and that he was calm and in full possession of his mental faculties when he burned himself.
Thich Nhat Hanh explained the nature of this self-immolation - the choice to do it, and the ability to do it in peace - to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in this letter:
The self-burning of Vietnamese Buddhist monks in 1963 is somehow difficult for the Western Christian conscience to understand. The Press spoke then of suicide, but in the essence, it is not. It is not even a protest. What the monks said in the letters they left before burning themselves aimed only at alarming, at moving the hearts of the oppressors and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering endured then by the Vietnamese. To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance. There is nothing more painful than burning oneself. To say something while experiencing this kind of pain is to say it with the utmost of courage, frankness, determination and sincerity. During the ceremony of ordination, as practiced in the Mahayana tradition, the monk-candidate is required to burn one, or more, small spots on his body in taking the vow to observe the 250 rules of a bhikshu, to live the life of a monk, to attain enlightenment and to devote his life to the salvation of all beings. One can, of course, say these things while sitting in a comfortable armchair; but when the words are uttered while kneeling before the community of sangha and experiencing this kind of pain, they will express all the seriousness of one's heart and mind, and carry much greater weight.The Vietnamese monk, by burning himself, say with all his strengh [sic] and determination that he can endure the greatest of sufferings to protect his people. But why does he have to burn himself to death? The difference between burning oneself and burning oneself to death is only a difference in degree, not in nature. A man who burns himself too much must die. The importance is not to take one's life, but to burn. What he really aims at is the expression of his will and determination, not death. In the Buddhist belief, life is not confined to a period of 60 or 80 or 100 years: life is eternal. Life is not confined to this body: life is universal. To express will by burning oneself, therefore, is not to commit an act of destruction but to perform an act of construction, i.e., to suffer and to die for the sake of one's people.…I believe with all my heart that the monks who burned themselves did not aim at the death of the oppressors but only at a change in their policy. Their enemies are not man. They are intolerance, fanaticism, dictatorship, cupidity, hatred and discrimination which lie within the heart of man. I also believe with all my being that the struggle for equality and freedom you lead in Birmingham, Alabama... is not aimed at the whites but only at intolerance, hatred and discrimination. These are real enemies of man — not man himself. In our unfortunate father land we are trying to yield desperately: do not kill man, even in man's name. Please kill the real enemies of man which are present everywhere, in our very hearts and minds.
A person who is ready to engage in peaceful self-immolation and who is called to it and chooses it becomes, quite literally, a torch. This torch shines a light on suffering in the world that many people want to turn away from. John F. Kennedy himself said of this act, “No news picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world as that one.”
I can say from experience that Zen meditation is not the easiest way to learn not to feel pain. Both yoga and self-hypnosis can lead to a place of say, being able to get a filling without novocaine much easier than one can do it with Zen. (I have actually had a crown done without Novocaine, using meditation alone.) Zen is the hardest way because part of Zen practice is to become acutely aware, to open up all the senses. Closing down the senses is a more yogic practice. Closing down the senses is part of advanced, not beginning, Zen practice. But the advantage is this: Once one has learned to fully open the senses, then when one closes them, one closes them very fully, as well.
Again, though, this is not a matter primarily of skill and discipline. In fact, after Quang Duc’s peaceful self-immolation, others followed suit. Other members of my Order did it peacefully, or did not do it at all. However, others, including Buddhist monks, did it in imitation, and from a place of anger, and sadly died very painful deaths.
What message does such an act send? Remember, at the time, the US was bombing rural Vietnam. Many people were dying painful deaths, some burning to death. And no one was paying any attention. Thich Quang Duc’s self-immolation was, spiritually, the same as a fireman running into a house to save the lives of burning people. No, he did not personaly carry anyone out of the fire. But his sacrifice of his bodily life lit the way for what became the peace movement and the eventual end of the Vietnam War.
May we all learn the deep peace that Thich Quang Duc learned, and may we look honestly at the world and eliminate suffering so that such sacrifice is no longer needed.
“Not feeling” pain seems a bit misleading. I would think it is more a matter of being able to feel all things fully, without struggling against them. All sensation is mere sensation, including that of immolation. Including internal sensations, such as fear. That is the impressive part - that he faced the fear we imagine, our ordinary fear of burning alive.
DPOP
I also think that it is a matter of terminology, and that, unless we have meditated in the presence of severe pain and at least begun to learn these methods, the conversation is too speculative. Just as advanced color theory for active artists is useful, but advanced color theory means little alone, so I suggest - and I believe that the Buddha suggests - that we not discuss these things at a theoretical level, but only in a context of shared practice seeking to develop skills in relation to facing pain in deep peace. Do you have personal experience in this area?
RUBBER BAND PAIN MTHD
There was a moment in childhood when I experienced torture and all was clear. That realization has been affirmed by a lifetime. Sensations pass, and I remain. I made a decision when the pain came, regarding what I was and what the pain was. Long periods of physical anguish in adult life affirmed that posture.
More Nietzsche than Buddha there. Personally I have a much closer relationship with mystical Taoism than Zen. There’s a division that goes a long way back. I am the smiling vinegar taster!
The “shared practice…facing pain in deep peace”—have these techniques seen medical use? Sounds like useful alternative medicine. More so than acupuncture!
Your childhood realization matches experiences in my own life and is affirmed in the Buddha-dharma. Most of my own pain, though, is in years of chronic illness after I became a Buddhist practitioner.
Yes, Taoist, Buddhist, and yogic practices are useful in relation to illness and to medical procedures. I do all three, and I almost never need pain medication. This allows me to write daily, whereas living on pain meds would not. I share and teach what I know. If you are interested in learning qigong (the medical side of Taoism) or other aspects of conscious practice in relation to pain, please feel free to send me a private message on Quora. These practices increase longevity, improve quality of life (both less pain and greater ability to function and create even when pain is present), and deepen spiritual awakening.
QIGONG 20 MIN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwlvTcWR3Gs
My experience of dhamma practice and meditation is that I feel experiences more clearly, but my capacity to hold them increases. If I burn my finger, it hurts like hell, but as long as I am able to stay concentrated with the feeling of it burning it is not nearly as bad as if I try to run from the pain and the pain keeps jumping back again every time I try to avoid it and the feeling comes back.
prefer not to speculate about the experience of another practitioner. My understanding is that there are three possibilities:
- As you say, we experience the pain, remain concentrated and non-reactive.
- We experience extreme, intense sensation, but it is not proper to call it pain, for there is no naming involved. This is what I experienced when I had dental work done without novocaine. Waves of energetic sensation passed through, but not pain.
- Using a more yogic meditation technique, the brain truly does not register nerve sensations from the body. (This was demonstrated using EEGs in the Meninger Institute in the 1970s.)
All three are possible. What matters is not what the venerable Quang Duc did, but the knowledge that our relationship to sensation is this much under our control with proper training and practice, if we choose to take it on.
the Heart Sutra can provide an insight here. With the body, feelings, perceptions, mental sankharas, and sensory consciousness, there is no “I am”, there is no “me”, there is no “mine”, there is no “myself”. With the attainment of nirodha-samapatti, the extinction of feeling and perception suspends all consciousness and mental activity. So the self-immolation becomes possible in the highest sense.
have had tremendous peace with Kundalini yoga, standing meditations like Tai chi, chakra meditations, solfeggios sounds
Why did burning monk not feel any pain?
I can think of two conditions:
- Jhana:
- Jhanas at the Forest Refuge
- The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation
- The Jhānas (Concentration States)
- Nirodha Samapatti:
I'm not really qualified to answer the details because I have not achieved that level, also I have forgotten what I read.
I only know Jhana and Nirodha Samapatti have the ability to bear mental and physical pain. Jhana abandons the pain temporarily. Nirodha Samapatti abandons pain permanently.
It's not that this venerable monk didn't suffer the pain/heat. He did suffer the pain/heat physically (and this is why the body burned) but not mentally (this is why he was calm).
If this venerable monk was an arahant and remained in Nirodha Samapatti, he could not be burned by others. He could be burned only if he willed. Sometimes, Arahants willed to be burned when they reached the end of normal lifespan. I have neither heard nor read anywhere a monk needed to will to be burned. However, some monks became arahants during dying period as they committed suicide by cutting own throats and realized they were not yet arahants.
BEYOND 3RD JHANA
It might be unknown for ordinary people how he did. However, it's commonly known in Buddhism and Yoga: the jhana.
Since the 3rd jhana, a practitioner can already separate the mind from the feelings and sensory perception. Practically, all pain signals are received by receptors but would never disturb the mind (which normally controls whether to panic or react to the pain).
Since the 4th jhana, a practitioner can also stop the body's survival activities such as metabolism or breath.
Therefore, as you can see in the video, the monk sat still without any reaction to what was happening to the body. He must be in at least 3rd jhana.
......
My sister observed her Tibetan Lama succumbing to pancreatic cancer. He refused to take pain medication, and continued to teach up to two weeks before his death. For all appearances, he seemed to be normal .. his usual mental clarity, calmness, humor, strength, etc. Except that occasional during a 2-hour teaching he would close his eyes for a few minutes and sit quietly … opening his eyes and apologizing for the interruption by explaining that he had been “talking to his teachers”. Now my sister took this to mean some higher entities, but since Buddhists call all difficult people and all pain their “kind teacher”, I interpret that to mean he felt physical pain and was focusing on relaxing into it. Because that IS what enlightenment is about.
Based on this anecdotal information from my sister, and from the teachings I have received from my own and other Lamas, as well as Theravadan monks ... I assume that the burning monk felt the pain, but had mental tools to cope with it and not be overwhelmed by it. That takes a GREAT deal of learned skill, if that is what was happening.
However, the fact is that the burning monk is the ONLY one who KNOWS if he felt pain or not.
Nobody can say the monk didn't feel any pain. I would suspect we all really know he did. The proper question would be how could the burning monk maintain his composure from life into death under the most excruciating circumstances. That is a mystery above my pay grade. Perhaps that was only seconds of amazing fortitude, because the flames would have rapidly seared his lungs and asphyxiated him. "When the air is hot enough, one breath can kill"
..........The answer is with equanimity.
Practicing vedanā-nupassanā to the stage where he can feel the entire body in constant "burning" sensations from all the biochemical reactions taking place throughout the body and being able to remain equanimous, then the burning flames as seen in the picture, will not affect the stability of his mind.
Of course the burning sensation is there; however, to him - it is not pain - but rather, just the arisings and passings of the biochemical reactions happening on the surface of the body and throughout his body.
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